Vor, Nach and Indes - Tactical Modes for Timing [HEMA,LONGSWORD WORKSHOP, 29-31.03.2025]-TheHemaDude TLDR:
In the KdF system (the Liechtenauer tradition of fencing), we do not have either a precise time measuring unit (4 seconds, 1/10th of a minute etc.) for measuring the time it takes to perform Actions in a fight (which would be absurd and useless), or the concept of “Tempo” which is present and quite central to the Italian fencing tradition (and in my opinion is more useful than precise units, but still imprecise because the duration of Actions varies significantly between Action types). We have something better: the concepts of Vor, Nach and Indes, which are tactical TIMING MODES, that work regardless of the specific technique (or Action) performed (and the varying duration of techniques or Actions). Vor, Nach and Indes consist of a combination of Initiative + Threat (always cumulatively!) and if we understand this properly, we should always be able to achieve the wondrous (and historical!) objective of fighting cleanly (hit and don't get hit!).
Companion article for this workshop:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Kymbgs9HHKQDOPvt9WJ1t1oQX-BF7OlSUYoolSvJqOY/edit?usp=sharing
Andrei Chirlesan - TheHemaDude online resources and presence here:
https://www.thehemadude.com
https://www.facebook.com/TheHEMADudeAndreiChirlesan
I'm available for workshops. If you want to have me over at your club or event, don't hesitate to write or call:
https://www.thehemadude.com/blank-2
00:00 Intro and a little bit about me.
02:11 TheHemaDude and IWHA General Concepts theory.
17:15 Vor, Nach and Indes specific theory and concepts.
33:28 Drill 1 - Just Nach OR Indes for the Responder. Just Vor for the Initiator.
40:29 Drill 2 - Both Initiator and Responder can make a SECOND ACTION, BUT ONLY AFTER their initial Action has finished.
47:51 Drill 3 - No more defined roles. Both drill participants can choose to be either Initator OR Responder, for EACH exchange.
56:20 Put on FULL GEAR.
56:35 Drill 4 - As the Student, be a Responder, accept losing the Vor. As the Coach, be an Initiator, take the Vor, simply, as fast as possible.
01:02:30 Drill 5 - Coach is still Initiator, keeps trying to take the Vor, as before. Student is still Responder, but is now allowed to fight in Nach (Parry-Riposte).
01:11:34 Drill 6 - Coach is still Initiator, leeps trying to take the Vor, WITH A SIMPLE OBERHAU. Student is still Responder, but can now reply with Parry-Riposte (Nach) or Zornhau (Indes).
01:21:30 Drill 7 - Coach is still Initiator, keeps trying to take the Vor, BUT can do so EITHER with a simple Oberhau OR a Zwerchhau. Student is still Responder, but must now identify what's coming towards them and respond accordingly.
01:28:38 Q&A and end of workshop.
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My name is Andrei Chirlesan, the alter ego of my true self TheHemaDude, which you can find here:
https://www.thehemadude.com
https://www.facebook.com/TheHEMADudeAndreiChirlesan
I'm available for workshops. If you want to have me over at your club or event, don't hesitate to write or call:
https://www.thehemadude.com/blank-2
Regarding this video, I was invited to teach at the prestigious HEMA event Winterkamp 2025, where they had ~200 participants(!) and around 25 different(!) workshops and lectures (with a 40 participant / workshop or lecture cap) in the course of 3 days:
https://www.facebook.com/events/2126578811056308/
Once again I held a workshop of 1 hour and 30 minutes on a topic that I normally teach in 3 hours. So beware, here be dragons and fast-talking. :)
The specific topic of this workshop is the concepts of Vor, Nach and Indes from the Liechtenauer tradition of German Longsword. Which are TACTICAL TIMING MODES (when is the best time to apply one of the 3 BROAD tactics possible in fencing?) consisting of a combination of Initiative + Threat (always cumulatively!) which, if understood correctly enable us to fight cleanly (hit and don't get hit!).
But be advised that the video begins with some General Concepts that make up my Longsword framework (TheHemaDude // IWHA). A framework that I created because I felt the need for a modern approach to organize the concepts that are fundamental to fighting with the Longsword, which the early Liechtenauer sources that I study mention nothing about. Things like: Range, Action, Threat and four easily understandable Distances (No Contact, Blade to Blade, Blade to Body and Body to Body).
If you're intrigued and want to know more about these, watch the video and read the first 4 companion articles on my site:
https://www.thehemadude.com/longsword-framework-articles
If not, just skip ahead (see timestamps above).
I would like to once again thank the entire organizing team of Winterkamp 2025, for inviting me to teach at their event, Petru Mihalache (Iron Will HEMA Academy) for filming and editing the workshop and, of course, the ~40 participants that attended it.
Best of luck in your HEMA adventure, until we meet again!